Wednesday, April 11, 2018

halacha - What defines a country to be a legitimate country?


There are a few Halachas that apply to a Jew's relationship with his country. For example, Dina Dmalchusa, another is not to rebel (although its Halachic strength is disputed, all agree that under normal conditions, one should keep those three oaths.)




What defines a country vis-a-vis these laws?


For example, if there were religious Jews in the United States before the revolution, at what point would the Jews be permitted (or more accurately, obligated) to support the United States? Would Jews be allowed to support the Confederacy? On the other hand, were Jews permitted to join the Union if they came from the south?


On one hand, maybe the Confederacy is considered an independent country invaded by the Union (as they viewed themselves). On the other, maybe the South were rebels, so it would be forbidden to help them.


At which point would Jews be obligated to obey their laws? At which point did "United States law" trump "British law" vis-a-vis Dina Dmalchusa?




EDIT


A further question (similar to this one):



At which point does a group of people become a country. For example, if one lived in a neighborhood which was run by a Mafia, would he be obligated to obey the laws of that Mafia (for example, if he got away with not paying "protection money", would he still be violating "Dina Dmalchusa")?



Answer



A consensus developed among the Gaonim, and it appears in the Rambam, that "show me the money" is one criterion in determining legitimacy. If you're not sure if this uprising is a real government, have it issue currency and see if people use it. They do? It's a real government. (As for the American Revolution: someone remind me please about the phrase "not worth a Continental...")


While others differed, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein felt that even Communist Russia in its early years was treated as a legitimate government, albeit a seriously flawed one.


I'd asked a posek about Iraq under Saddam Hussein, he said no halacha wouldn't call that legitimate, a government that is as far from honesty as can be. I asked exactly where the line was drawn, the posek said he couldn't say, but Saddam was definitely on the other side!


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